tim. ([info]o_song) wrote,
@ 2008-04-07 15:10:00
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Jamie Liddell - Wait For Me
This is my first post for some time, largely because I had a PhD thesis to write. I guess it's ewritten. I'll try and be reasonably regular from now on.

Jamie Liddell - "Wait For Me"
(3:29, 4.8mb)
Track 2, Jim, 2008.

I've decided recently that there is such a thing as good music and bad music. The difference between good and bad music, to me, doesn't have much to do with the genre of the music, the political overtones of the music, or the influences and musical references in the music (that's another story). For me, the difference lays within the ability of the musicians (and/or producer) to say, musically, whatever it is that they want to say (there is the question of whether to attribute the message to the author, or whether th message is simply the song, but that's another story too).

Most of the musicians who are typically discussed in discussions of taste (e.g., Vampire Weekend) are mostly pretty good in this sense. Musicians who don't make good music; you rarely hear about them, because the music they make is rarely worth discussing. I won't name names, but we're talking about the 75% of the other bands on the bill that never quite get a fanbase and make polite music which might appeal to fans of other bands but never quite has anything to say.

In this sense, Jamie Liddell's "Wait For Me" is undeniably good music. Lyrically, the lyrics are fairly straightforward. You don't need to get that far past the title to get the gist - e.g., that the singer is trying to convince a lover that, while he may be absent, he will be faithful, and that the lover should also be faithful. Musically, though, it's not the slow jam or acoustic folk that those lyrics suggest; instead, the song has a gleeful bounce. It's as if the singer knows that his lover will be faithful, and is, in singing about their absence from each other, celebrating the strength of their love.

Liddell's vocal performances have the kind of conviction and intensity that's typically missing from your Idol winners. And the piano playing on the track is pretty astonishing, especially the solo. But what really gets me about the song is its sheer effervescent joy for life. You can ascribe influences and sonic influences to the music (e.g., Motown, and in particular Stevie Wonder, who has a similar exuberance) and make your mind up about the politics of love described in the song, but my suspicion is that you'd be better off not worrying so much, and just listening to it as good music.

tim.



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[info]sqrnookle
2008-04-07 06:07 am UTC (link)
Interesting!

It does seem that so many people get caught up in defining a song's genre as to whether it is 'good' or not. I guess your definition also covers whether the song is successful in a musical sense.

*goes to listen to song*

(congrats on finishing the PhD, by the way) :o)

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[info]o_song
2008-04-07 09:44 am UTC (link)
Thanks Julian. :)

tim.

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[info]penelly
2008-04-07 06:43 am UTC (link)
Yay for more music posts from o_song! :D

I have a few Liddell songs from "Multiply". They make me happy. :)

[downloads Wait for Me]

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[info]frogworth
2008-04-07 06:51 am UTC (link)
It'll come as no surprise that I *really* dislike that ;)
I hated Multiply too. But it's purely because it's a kind of music that I, er, really dislike. So I'm not about to say it's bad music, but nor am I about to agree that it's undeniably good music!

On the other hand, all except 2 of the songs on the new Gonzales album are winners! The two I hate being the two that sound most like the new Liddell sound... (That's Chilly Gonzo, not Jose Gonzales...)

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[info]o_song
2008-04-07 09:43 am UTC (link)
Yeah, no surprise. Your taste does often puzzle me! Do you dislike Stevie Wonder/Motown kind of stuff in general?

I don't really know Gonzales that well - I know he plays piano on the remixes CD version of Multiply the song, and does quite well at that - I thought he might be playing piano on "Wait For Me"? - is his stuff that different from Liddell?

tim.

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[info]frogworth
2008-04-07 09:50 am UTC (link)
Gonzo's a really great pianist!
His stuff has ranged from a weird kind of hip-hop to cheesy weird stuff of various kinds. The new album is quite retro, but mostly in a more, I dunno, pop vein rather than soul/Motown etc.

I dislike most of the music in the gospel/soul/Motown/r'n'b spectrum, with some exceptions. I have a love/hate relationship with funk. I like *some* amounts of the contemporary r'n'b sound - good production, hate the ornate vocals, but something like Destiny's Child is impressive for what it is... etc etc.

Mind you, I don't mind some Stevie Wonder. Jammin' is an amazing tune. Higher Ground...

Jamie Lidell used to do a good line in IDM/crazy electronica. The Super_Collider stuff is quite good, at least the first album, but already he was using the soul vocal stylings which started to turn me off...

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[info]leila1979
2008-04-07 07:27 am UTC (link)
hello!

saying something well, that sounds to me like authenticity, and being expressive and passionate?

as opposed to good acting which has to do with empathy?

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[info]o_song
2008-04-07 09:47 am UTC (link)
I'm not talking about authenticity as such - that's a whole other kettle of fish; what Liddell has to say in the song may be entirely contrived, or may not be, and good music according to my definition doesn't have to be expressive or passionate as such. But the song does have to get across some sort of mood or feeling - whether or not it's a real feeling felt by the artist is a different thing - or has to make you feel something. Commercial pop music could be good music on those terms, based on what it's trying to say, etc.

tim.

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[info]leila1979
2008-04-07 06:57 pm UTC (link)
yes i see now that i was assuming it would have to be mostly authentic to have the ability to convey the mood in question. i suppose (grumble ;) ) authenticity is not necessary, but i question or wonder how much "good" music doesn't contain authenticity? i guess it would depend on what measure you use... but what your personal estimation be?

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[info]sqrnookle
2008-04-07 10:54 am UTC (link)
But does acting require empathy, or just the evocation of empathy in the audience? True, empathy with their character really helps some actors act well, but good acting doesn't necessarily need it.

Which I guess reflects Tim's comment to yours - in any art form, the ability/skill of the artist to provoke a reaction from the audience/viewer/listener is what matters in defining it as good/successful; it doesn't matter quite as much (by Tim's definition) whether the artist is feeling it, just whether they can express it (though any authenticity or empathy certainly would help them achieve that).

Wow, that was some rambling. :o)

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[info]leila1979
2008-04-07 07:11 pm UTC (link)
i wonder about film because i've always had trouble getting into compared to music. so as i've started to enjoy some movies, i've been trying to figure out what makes me like one compared to another, and compared to a song.

acting is confusing because by definition it is not the actor's experience, whereas music is usually the exact opposite? (i know this isn't always the case in music, but isn't is mostly?)

and again here i was assuming that the actor could only create "good" work by being good at empathizing, and performing in that way. i suppose it's not necessary ;) but what quality is it that allows them to fool people?

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[info]o_song
2008-04-08 12:51 am UTC (link)
There's always an element of acting in music - when I'm onstage and singing and playing piano, I'm typically not actively remembering whatever emotions caused me to write the song; to be honest, I'm largely trying to remember the lyrics and stay in time and tune. Either that or I'm in a zone of some sort where I've turned off conscious awareness and just let it flow. But I'm not sitting there and thinking, "well, 'Things That I Did After You Left' is about how I felt coming home from the airport after dropping Jadey off for a flight back to Queensland, in April/March 2005 or so".

But I don't think I'm just going through the motions with those songs - I hope the crowd will get some sense of emotional engagement from it (I get the impression that at least some people do) - I have no idea whether they do or not though! So whatever else is there comes across. I don't know if it's acting or not, it's just...singing.

Though apparently, when Ray Charles was singing those sad songs where his voice dripped with emotion, he was usually thinking about the way black people were mistreated in the south of the US. So I don't know whether that's just me or that's just him.

tim.

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[info]leila1979
2008-04-08 01:43 am UTC (link)
yes yes i agree on the performance aspect of music.. i meant the writing and recording aspect of music though.. ? the creation of it?

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[info]all_summer_long
2008-04-07 11:25 pm UTC (link)
arghhh i tried to post this and it didn't load - i don't know if i've been able to reconstruct this again :(
.....

biz, i really want to reply to this but i'm unsure of exactly what to say about your thoughts in the first couple of paragraphs especially. this might be because i'm not entirely awake yet.

i guess i should start with the fact that i do like this song you posted, but i don't think i was as knocked out with it as you were. i think it's good, and it has a sweet piano solo in there, and it sounds a lot like motown, which i obviously dig, but perhaps i am missing something that you're hearing? i think you're hearing something ELSE in it - which i love, because i love seeing you get excited over new songs. :) maybe i should listen to it a couple more times...or maybe i'm just burned out on listening at the moment with my work, etc.

as for whether music is "good" or "bad" music - it's probably obvious to say that it's a pretty subjective thing, and gets into that whole "taste" debate which is too big to discuss in a reply here. though, i do think authenticity plays a role in what you're saying, more the perception of authenticity- which is ACTUALLY the debate of "authenticity" in the first place. is anything truly authentic? this is kind of obvious in someone like, say, frank sinatra - he didn't write any of those love songs, and by various accounts, was kind of an asshole, but when you hear him sing "night and day" or "i only have eyes for you" i BELIEVE it. he sings it like he means it, and that is a type of authenticity.

it feels like, to me, you're really tapping into the "energy" of a song - whether it's this joyful feel in "wait for me" or the frustration in another, or the sadness in another... etc. it's more about "feels" - for lack of a better descriptor.

what you said about "rarely hearing musicians who don't make good music"...are you only referring to bands discussed in magazines, blogs, reviews, etc? i think it would depend where you're looking - you look at a lot of music blogs written by music nerds like yourself - they wouldn't spend time on looking at music that wasn't worthwhile. if you branch out into more mainstream music media, i seem to find there is often a lot of hype over various records or bands who aren't doing much that is interesting at all. maybe i've taken what you meant the wrong way, though!

though since i spend all day analysing music for "work" i agree with just swtiching off and enjoing it for FUN! woohoo!

xx

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[info]o_song
2008-04-08 12:05 am UTC (link)
Maybe I am hearing something else in it that nobody else does, and that's fine!

I wrote that post quite quickly, and didn't elaborate things or spell out my thoughts as best as I could have. I mostly wanted to inspire debate, in a way, and am in a way sorting things out in my head..

I think a lot of the debate about authenticity is in some ways a debate about the kinds of emotions that are on display; real human emotions and moods are messy, complicated things, and they're ambiguous and subtle and contextual. What's interesting about Frank Sinatra is that the songs he sings are very basic, simple songs lyrically - they're often not dealing with emotions or subjects that are particularly complex - I Only Have Eyes For You, for example. Singers who specialise in those kind of songs, like Sinatra...their specialty is filling out those songs with their own feelings and desires. I think Sinatra in his prime was great at contextualising the songs, making them more subtle; I think that's a lot of what people mean when they say that a singer "makes a song their own".

People who value authenticity rarely seem to have much problem with someone like Randy Newman, for example, even though Randy Newman almost never writes first person love songs or stories about his life (he does have the one album, Land of Dreams, about that, and it's not one of his stronger albums, being from the mid-late 80s). Tom Waits is the same. I feel like the reason that their music works is because Waits and Newman (etc) populate their songs with complicated feelings that seem real; in contrast, your Celine Dions tend to blast one particular primary colour emotion without much focus on the subtlety and context of the lyrics, sounds, etc. And I imagine the argument would be that Celine Dion-style emotions are contrived.

But that's not what I'm talking about with the good-music/bad-music dichotomy - I'm more talking about the effectiveness of the way whatever feelings/moods/situations are being expressed in the song, and to me that has to do with how well the musicians manipulate variables in the song like dynamics, chords, sounds, etc etc. So a Celine Dion song that manipulates those things in a way that broadcast her primary colour emotions most strongly is 'good music' in my sense. Maybe 'good' is the wrong word because of the connotations of rightness; maybe I should be saying 'effective music' rather than 'good music'.

And yes, you're right - I didn't mean to refer to just bands discussed in magazines, blogs, reviews, etc. It is noticeable when you see a track on video hits that just isn't effective - the song comes and goes without making much impression, except "well, that was boring" or a channel flick.

(I have more to say and may say it in another comment)

tim.

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[info]o_song
2008-04-08 12:37 am UTC (link)
Take "Bootylicious" by Destiny's Child - to use Peter of [info]frogworth fame's example. To me the song seems to be effective regardless of whether I like the song. It has to do partly with Beyonce's obvious musicality, but it's also got to do with the way the song sets up dynamic flows, pushes and pulls etc - the way the tenseness of the verses, with that Stevie Nicks guitar riff, sets up the release of the hookline in the chorus, and the way the bridge/middle 8 feels like a crescendo. It's very clear in that song that Beyonce is saying that she's a strong, independent black woman, and the song feels like it's meant as a rebuke to people who'd think she was a muppet with someone else pulling the strings. There's also a definite aggressive sexuality to the song; it's clear she's aware that she is - as an R&B singer - a sex object, but she is trying to suggest that it's on her own terms rather than the terms of others.

I think that the song can successfully convey that kind of thing to me makes it effective - I don't have any deep knowledge of modern R&B, but I get at what she's trying to say, and not only through the lyrics but through the feels of the songs.

In contrast, that Delta Goodrem song, "You Will Only Break My Heart" we saw on Video Hits (the disco-ish one where we commented on her Celinity) clearly didn't work in the same way. There was a lot of incongruity there; Delta didn't seem to inhabit the song, and her voice was clearly under a bit of stress, because she sounded particularly shrill. The singing just didn't fit over the music either, they sounded like they were from different songs, and not in a good way. Musically it was fairly static, and (perhaps because it was live) it didn't have much depth to it, mostly it was the fairly bog standard beat and bassline that came across. I don't know what she was trying to say in that song - and I suspect that she didn't either - and so I don't think it was that effective as music.

tim.

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[info]leila1979
2008-04-08 02:06 am UTC (link)
you seem to focus a lot on examples of those who don't write their music (is most music like this? i don't know?)... i don't think i question that "good"/effective music in your definition must be authentic.. as you have shown with your examples :) i'm just curious as to how much of this effective music falls into the authentic category? i wonder if it is more like 50/50 based on all of your examples.. though i would have suspected it was more 90/10 or something like that before this discussion...

and i don't think i meant that to be authentic it must come from the musician's own life experiences, even if you are writing a song on other people's life experiences or other random topics, it still ends up being from your perspective... which is your experience of it?

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[info]o_song
2008-04-08 02:14 am UTC (link)
Oh - I wasn't arguing with you here Leila! I was just trying to expand what I was saying in the original post.

I'm focusing on examples of those who don't write their music as a rhetorical device. Writing your own music gets caught up in notions of authenticity, and I want to avoid that, because my notion of effectiveness is a different category to authenticity in my head.

Indie music is reasonably unusual for focusing on people who write their own music, in the grand scheme of things - writing your own music was never that big a deal until the Beatles and Dylan in the 1960s - classical musicians play works composed by others, and R&B and commercial pop is typically composed by others (though that's noticeably changed in the last few years); however, I should point out that Beyonce and Delta Goodrem are both credited as co-writers on those particular songs.

tim.

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[info]leila1979
2008-04-08 04:54 pm UTC (link)
I see what you meant :) and those examples are indeed useful for what you were discussing... thanks for the info! :)

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Jimmy
(Anonymous)
2009-06-04 07:58 pm UTC (link)
Wait for me is a stunning track, don't doubt it!

I don't understand why soul seems to be repugnant to frog. Then of course there are forms of music which I have no taste for....

... but Wait for me IS undeniably good lmao.

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